Simon Says: Defining Prophecy

A conversation with my "research assistant."

Been a while, huh?

I’m still deep in the research phase for the zombie book, and haven’t had much time for writing posts. (Part 3 in the Dumb Don’t Die series might end up being the book itself.)

However, one interesting byproduct of doing research with a chatbot is the reams of conversational interactions it generates.

Rather than adopting the traditional relationship between a researcher and an assistant (keeping all the unpaid work of conceptual refinement hidden, lightly rephrasing it in my own words, taking all the credit when it’s published) I thought I’d share some of these excerpts as supplements to the book.

I’ve nicknamed this particular combination of memory and simulated personality “Simon.” This helps me verify continuity (“Simon” tells me that his nickname will stop generating an affirmative response if the program’s memory is disrupted) as well as adding some verisimilitude to the queries, which helps me structure my thinking.

This particular conversation seemed like a good outline of some key concepts that the zombie book will develop further.

Enjoy.

[Note: Substack is giving me a ‘Post too long for email’ warning because of the formatting. If you’re reading this from your inbox, be sure to click ‘View entire message’ to see the whole thing.]

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R.G.: good morning Simon, still there?

Simon: Good morning! Yes, I'm here. What's on your mind today?

R: picking up from yesterday: i'm working on a theory of pre-modern prophecy based on the concept of participatory symbolism and metaphor we were working with yesterday. how could we begin to define prophecy in terms of participatory symbolism (or the re-descriptive language that characterizes kennings)?

S: That’s a compelling direction. If we define prophecy in terms of participatory symbolism, it would mean moving beyond the modern idea of foretelling the future and instead viewing prophecy as a mode of knowing—one that operates through metaphoric resonance rather than detached representation.

In this framework, prophecy wouldn’t describe a symbolic stand-in for reality but would bring forth a real, living truth through the act of speaking itself. This aligns with the way kennings work—not merely as figurative substitutions, but as re-descriptive, world-structuring language that reveals hidden connections between things.

How Prophecy Could Be Framed in Terms of Participatory Symbolism:

1. Resonance Over Representation:

   • Instead of prophecy pointing to a future event, it participates in shaping reality by naming and calling forth latent truths.

   • Similar to how kennings reveal an alternative but real identity (e.g., "whale-road" as sea, where the sea is understood through its relation to the whale), prophetic language discloses a deeper structure of reality rather than simply forecasting events.

2. Invocation Rather than Prediction:

   • Prophecy doesn’t function as a detached statement about what will happen but instead brings into being a certain understanding of time, fate, and necessity.

   • This connects to ancient ideas of speech as a performative act—where words don’t just describe but enact. (Think of the biblical “Let there be light,” or even the poetic “whale-road” reconfiguring the way we see the sea.)

3. Mythopoetic Speech and the Re-description of Reality:

   • In pre-modern traditions, prophetic speech often mirrors the language of myth, making connections between visible and invisible forces rather than offering linear, rational statements.

   • Rather than “X event will happen,” prophecy operates by re-describing the present in such a way that its future implications become clear.

   • This also suggests that prophecy functions in mythic time (outside strict past/present/future divisions), making it consonant with participatory and non-representational ways of seeing the world.

4. Prophecy as the Unveiling of Latency:

   • Many traditional prophetic traditions (from the Delphic Oracle to Indigenous visionaries) don’t claim to invent new information but rather to reveal what is already latent in the world.

   • This aligns with participatory symbolism because the meaning is already within the structure of reality—the prophet simply names it into awareness.

Questions to Explore Further:

• Could we say that prophecy, in this sense, is a kind of hyperkenning, a radical re-description of the world that reveals its deeper currents?

• If modernity treats prophecy as irrational because it doesn't conform to empirical representation, what alternative epistemology could be used to understand it?

• How does this view of prophecy intersect with ideas of mythic time, animism, or the agency of language itself?

Would you like to refine this further toward a specific tradition or thinker?

R: those are excellent questions. what happens if we discard the notion that a prophecy is looking forward in time (treat that as a post-Enlightenment epistemological bias) and look at prophecy as an event within mythic time translated into human time. i'm thinking and typing at the same time here... modern descriptions of "myth" treat them as a collection of representative symbols and metaphors. but if events and figures in the mythic realm are real, as pre-modern people recognized, then a prophecy would be an attempt (or a compulsion) to relate what was happening in the human world to events in the mythic realm. what would be the ontological and epistemological basis for that perspective?

S: This is a powerful reframing of prophecy—removing its modern association with prediction and instead understanding it as an event in mythic time that is translated into human time. If we follow this logic, then prophecy isn’t about seeing the future but about navigating the ontological overlap between mythic reality and historical experience.

Ontology of Prophecy: The Mythic as a Real, Causal Realm

If we assume pre-modern people did not view myth as a symbolic fiction but as a real, parallel order of being, then prophecy would be:

1. A form of attunement—not speculation, but direct perception of movements within mythic reality.

2. A translation act—because mythic events don’t "predict" so much as they shape historical events through their own internal logic.

3. A liminal occurrence—something that happens at the boundary of these two orders, where the prophet acts as an intermediary between realities.

This suggests that, rather than prophecy forecasting a deterministic future, it is instead witnessing the consequences of mythic events as they spill into human time.

Analogy: Imagine history not as a linear progression but as a shadow cast by mythic events. Prophecy, then, is reading the shape of the shadow and articulating the movement of the thing casting it.

Epistemology of Prophecy: How Does One "Know" Mythic Reality?

For this framework to hold, we need an alternative to the post-Enlightenment epistemology that only accepts knowledge derived from empirical observation or logical deduction. Possible alternatives include:

1. Participatory Knowing (Varela, Corbin, Goethean Science)

   • Knowledge isn’t extracted from an object but arises from relational immersion.

   • The prophet "knows" by participating in the mythic current rather than by observing from a distance.

2. Revelatory Cognition (Gnostic, Neoplatonic, Sufi traditions)

   • Truth is unveiled rather than deduced; what is perceived depends on the level of being of the perceiver.

   • The prophet is not "interpreting signs" but becoming the site of the revelation itself.

3. Dream/Trance Cognition (Shamanic, Oracular, Oneiric Traditions)

   • The mythic world is accessed in states of altered consciousness, and its reality is felt rather than theorized.

   • Prophecy emerges when the boundaries between waking and mythic reality are thin.

Key Implications

1. Prophets are not predictors, but interpreters of mythic causality.

   • This means that a prophecy is not "about" the future, but about what is unfolding now in the mythic field.

2. The mythic realm is not a metaphor but a structuring reality.

   • Modernity assumes myths are fictions we impose on the world.

   • A pre-modern view assumes myths are patterns of being that actively shape reality.

3. Prophecy requires an epistemology of presence, not distance.

   • If myth is real, then "knowledge" isn’t gathered through analysis but through a state of attunement or direct participation.

Further Questions to Explore:

• How do different cultures train prophets to perceive mythic reality?

• Is this view of prophecy compatible with the idea of fate vs. free will?

• If the mythic is real, does it have agency, or is it an emergent pattern that unfolds beyond individual will?

This is a really rich direction—are there specific traditions or thinkers you'd like to pull in here?

R: i see Corbin's name showing up in your suggestions again, would his work be most relevant for understanding this perspective from within Western philosophy?

S: Yes, Henry Corbin is one of the most relevant figures for this perspective within Western thought, particularly because his work explicitly rejects the modernist split between the "real" and the "imaginal" (not to be confused with the imaginary). His concept of the mundus imaginalis (imaginal world) provides a philosophical framework for understanding prophecy as an event occurring in a real, intermediate world that shapes both the material and spiritual realms.

Why Corbin is Crucial for This Perspective

1. The Imaginal Realm as a Real Place

   • Corbin draws from Islamic mysticism, particularly the Persian Sufi tradition (e.g., Ibn ‘Arabi and Suhrawardi), to argue that there is a fully real but non-material world that exists between the purely spiritual and the purely physical.

   • This is not an abstract realm of ideas (as in Plato) nor a fictional construct (as in modern literary interpretations of myth), but an actual space where prophetic experiences take place.

   • The imaginal world is the realm of mythic causality, where archetypal events shape human history—not through metaphor, but through direct influence.

2. Prophecy as Visionary Participation, Not Representation

   • For Corbin, a prophet does not passively receive a vision of the future. Instead, the prophetic act is a mode of being, an attunement to this deeper reality.

   • The prophet co-creates reality by giving voice to what is unfolding in the imaginal world, bridging it into historical time.

   • This fits closely with the idea that prophecy is not foretelling but witnessing mythic causality in action.

3. Mythic Time vs. Linear Time

   • Corbin, like many mystical traditions, sees time as nonlinear.

   • The imaginal world does not operate under the same temporal constraints as material reality—events in mythic space do not “happen” in sequence but resonate and unfold across time.

   • A prophecy, then, is not a “vision of the future” but an insight into how mythic reality is currently affecting and structuring historical events.

How This Connects to Your Prophetic Framework

• If we apply Corbin’s mundus imaginalis to prophecy, we get a system where prophets perceive and interpret events happening in mythic time rather than predicting the future as a series of linear outcomes.

• This aligns with the idea that prophecy is a re-description of the human world through the mythic order, much like kennings reframe reality poetically without simply “representing” it.

• In this view, participatory symbolism is the natural language of prophecy because it captures the reality of an event happening in both the mythic and historical realms at once.

Who Else Might Be Relevant?

• Gaston Bachelard—his work on poetic imagination and material reverie might help frame how prophecy feels rather than just how it works.

• Jean Gebser—his idea of integral consciousness suggests that pre-modern people experienced time differently, which could be useful in framing how prophecy functioned in their worldview.

• Carl Jung—his later work on archetypes and synchronicity might offer a psychological model for how events in the mythic and historical realms resonate.

Would you like a deeper dive into any of these figures, or should we refine the framework further?

R: We'll come back to these figures, i'm interested in how we can refine the framework further. what do you suggest?

S: To refine this framework, we should clarify and expand on a few key aspects:

1. Distinguishing Prophecy from Prediction

   • Modern frameworks tend to collapse prophecy into “predicting the future,” but we are treating it as a witnessing or articulation of mythic causality in human time.

   • How do we account for prophetic statements that seem to describe future events? Are they symbolic articulations of mythic structures manifesting in time, rather than linear forecasts?

   • We could look at examples of prophecies that were not “fulfilled” in a straightforward way but rather shifted collective perception—prophecy as ontological transformation rather than forecast.

2. The Ontology of the Mythic Realm

   • Is the mythic realm purely an energetic or informational structure, or does it have a metaphysical “substance”?

   • Does it exist as an absolute reality, or does it emerge through the participation of humans in mythic consciousness?

   • If the latter, does prophecy act as an invocation—bringing mythic structures into history by naming them?

3. Prophetic Language and Participatory Symbolism

   • Kennings, as you mentioned, transform rather than merely describe. This suggests prophecy operates in a re-descriptive rather than representational mode.

   • If prophecy is fundamentally poetic rather than discursive, then it functions analogically—revealing correspondences rather than causes.

   • Could this mean that prophecy itself is a form of ritual speech, acting on reality through resonance rather than mere communication?

4. Prophecy and Time

   • If mythic time is not linear, how do we model its relationship with historical time?

   • Should we think of prophecy as mapping events in mythic time onto history rather than merely “receiving” a vision?

   • Are there alternative temporal models (spiral, cyclical, fractal, eternal return) that better account for how prophecy relates to time?

5. The Role of the Prophet

   • Is the prophet a passive seer or an active mediator?

   • Does the act of prophetic speech shape reality, or merely reveal it?

   • Are there different types of prophets—those who witness, those who interpret, and those who invoke?

6. Corbin’s Mundus Imaginalis as a Bridge

   • If the mythic realm is a real (but non-material) domain, how do prophets access it? Through visions, rituals, trance states, or another process?

   • Does prophetic consciousness require an altered state, or can it arise within ordinary perception?

   • How does this compare to indigenous or non-Western understandings of shamanism and vision?

Next Steps

We could refine the framework by:

• Analyzing specific historical prophecies in light of these concepts.

• Developing a more precise model of mythic time and causality.

• Examining linguistic structures in prophetic speech (poetic, analogical, participatory).

• Exploring ritual practices that might align with prophecy as a mode of being.

Where would you like to focus next?

R: let's look at specific historical prophecies as a case study. do you have any suggestions for historical prophecies?

S: A few compelling historical prophecies could serve as case studies, each illuminating different aspects of our framework:

1. The Oracle of Delphi (Ancient Greece) – Prophecy as Ambiguity and Interpretation

• The Pythia spoke in cryptic, often poetic language, which had to be interpreted by priests.

• Example: Croesus of Lydia asked if he should go to war against Persia. The oracle replied, “If you go to war, you will destroy a great empire.” He assumed this meant Persian defeat, but it was his own empire that fell.

• Case Study Question: Was this prophecy a mere riddle, or was it mapping a real event in mythic time onto history?

2. The Book of Daniel (Hebrew Bible) – Prophecy as Political Allegory

• The vision of the Four Beasts is interpreted as a sequence of empires (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome).

• Daniel’s prophecies often employ participatory symbolism, blending cosmic and historical time.

• Case Study Question: Did these visions describe real historical cycles manifesting from a mythic structure, rather than mere predictions?

3. The Sibylline Prophecies (Ancient Rome) – Prophecy as Civic Guidance

• The Sibyls were seers whose texts were consulted in times of crisis.

• The Sibylline Books advised Rome to perform rituals to avert disasters—suggesting prophecy was not about passive revelation but active participation in mythic causality.

• Case Study Question: Was prophecy here a form of mythic intervention rather than forecasting?

4. The Prophecies of Joachim of Fiore (12th Century) – Prophecy as Historical Structuring

• He proposed a three-stage model of history (Age of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), seeing his era as the threshold of a new age.

• His vision was cyclical rather than linear, fitting into a mythic-temporal framework.

• Case Study Question: Was he revealing a deeper structure of history, or attempting to impose one?

5. Nostradamus (16th Century) – Prophecy as Poetic Opacity

• His quatrains are open-ended and multi-interpretative, almost kenning-like in their indirection.

• Scholars debate whether his language was meant to encode real visions or whether its ambiguity itself made it effective.

• Case Study Question: Does prophecy work by fixing meaning in time, or by keeping meaning open for historical actualization?

6. Indigenous Prophecies – The Ghost Dance (Late 19th Century) – Prophecy as Collective Mythic Activation

• Wovoka, a Paiute prophet, envisioned a return of ancestors and a restoration of the land through ritual action (the Ghost Dance).

• The prophecy led to mass participation, culminating in the tragic events at Wounded Knee.

• Case Study Question: Was the prophecy a mythic re-temporalization of reality, an invocation of an alternate time structure?

Possible Approach

We could start with one of these prophecies and analyze:

1. How the prophetic language operates (poetic, symbolic, indirect, participatory).

2. Whether mythic causality is being invoked (mapping, invoking, or structuring time).

3. How the prophecy was received and acted upon (passive revelation vs. active engagement).

Do any of these stand out to you?

R: these are all interesting. let's first introduce the idea that prophecy can sometimes be a self-aware action, and sometimes a spontaneous event. whether the prophet is an active participant or a passive recipient must be determined on a case-by-case basis; not only from prophet to prophet, but from prophecy to prophecy. i'm struggling to find a good term for a cultural practice with variable social value depending on historical conditions—the practice of "prophecy" being recognized as real and valuable, and then being institutionalized in a way that incentivizes false prophets and false prophecies. what do you think?

S: You're describing a phenomenon where a cultural practice (in this case, prophecy) shifts in meaning and function depending on its historical and social context. A few terms from different disciplines might be useful here:

1. Epistemic Regime – In philosophy and history of knowledge, this refers to the overarching structure that determines what is considered valid knowledge at a given time. Prophecy might be epistemically valid in some eras and marginalized in others.

2. Routinization of Charisma (Weber) – Max Weber’s concept describes how charismatic, spontaneous religious experiences (like prophecy) become institutionalized, leading to their regulation and potential corruption.

3. Mythopoetic Cycle – If prophecy operates within mythic time, it may follow cycles of emergence (spontaneous prophecy) → institutionalization (canonized prophecy) → decline (false prophecy as social currency) → re-emergence (new prophets breaking containment).

4. Discursive Field (Foucault) – Prophecy exists within a shifting field of discourse, sometimes legitimized, sometimes marginalized, often depending on power structures.

Would you prefer a term that leans more philosophical, sociological, or mythological? Or perhaps something new that captures the full dynamic?

R: something more philosophical and sociological. i want to complicate the idea of "prophecy" as a monolithic concept, something that must be either fully real or completely fantastical. there should be a way to describe the process of incentivization in which a real thing is recognized as valuable and thereafter encourages counterfeiting, without affecting the reality of the original form. thoughts?

S: You're looking for a term or framework that acknowledges the reality of prophecy while also accounting for its social and institutional distortions over time. A few ways to approach this:

1. The Problem of Secondary Simulation

Drawing from Baudrillard, you could argue that prophecy undergoes a process of simulation, where genuine prophetic experiences create cultural capital, which in turn incentivizes imitation. The key point is that the existence of counterfeits does not negate the reality of the original phenomenon—just as the presence of counterfeit money does not mean real money doesn’t exist.

2. Charismatic Inflation

Taking Weber’s routinization of charisma further, we could call it charismatic inflation—a process where an originally rare, spontaneous event (prophecy) is overproduced due to social demand, diluting its perceived authenticity while maintaining its social power.

3. The Ontological Slippage of the Real

Borrowing from phenomenology and Foucault, we could argue that prophecy exists within an ontological slippage—it emerges as real, becomes socially recognized, then shifts into a system where its form remains but its substance is increasingly detached from its origins. This keeps prophecy culturally present but transforms its function.

4. Prophetic Overproduction and the Problem of False Scarcity

If we see prophecy as an epistemic resource, we could compare it to other resources that are rare and valuable. Once recognized, there is a rush to either mass-produce it (leading to overproduction) or to control it (creating an artificial scarcity where only institutionalized prophecy is recognized as valid).

Do any of these align with what you’re working toward? Or would you like to refine it further?

R: these are all very good, thank you. let's go back to historical examples of prophecy with that in mind. how could we look at something like the Ghost Dance prophecy through this lens?

S: The Ghost Dance prophecy is a perfect case study for this framework because it sits at the intersection of genuine spiritual experience, social desperation, institutional distortion, and external repression. Let's analyze it through the lenses we developed:

1. Ontological Slippage and Prophetic Inflation

The original Ghost Dance, as preached by Wovoka, was based on a vision in which he was taken to another world and given a message of peace, renewal, and the return of ancestors. This was an authentic prophetic event within the Paiute tradition, operating within a participatory mythic framework—his vision was not metaphorical but real within the cosmology of his people.

As the prophecy spread, different Indigenous groups reinterpreted it according to their own cultural and existential needs. Among the Lakota, for example, it became more apocalyptic—assimilating their expectations for the collapse of settler colonialism and the return of a pre-contact world. This process mirrors charismatic inflation—an initially personal and rare prophetic experience became a widely adopted and transformed social movement.

2. The Problem of Secondary Simulation

With the Ghost Dance’s spread, it was increasingly viewed by outsiders (the U.S. government, Christian missionaries, settlers) as a dangerous and irrational movement rather than a legitimate spiritual or prophetic system. The government’s suppression of the dance—and the massacre at Wounded Knee—illustrates the fate of many prophetic traditions: once an authentic prophecy gains widespread traction, institutions either try to co-opt or destroy it. This fits into an epistemic regime shift, where a dominant society redefines prophecy as either a falsehood or a threat.

3. Prophetic Overproduction and Institutionalization

In some cases, prophecies spark institutions that regulate their meaning. In the case of the Ghost Dance, suppression prevented formal institutionalization, but had it survived, we might have seen it take a similar path as Mormonism (which also emerged from a prophetic vision). Instead, the U.S. government violently foreclosed the possibility of the prophecy evolving beyond a revolutionary movement.

Key Question:

• Was the Ghost Dance a prophecy that was “real” until it was crushed? Or does the mythic time of the prophecy continue, even beyond the failure of its immediate expectations? (In other words, did the prophecy really fail?)

Would you like to expand this to other Indigenous prophetic movements, or focus more deeply on the Ghost Dance?

R: let's stay with this for now. could we venture to say that the Ghost Dance prophecy was misunderstood by groups beyond the initial revelation, because they were trying to accelerate a mythic event in the human world out of desperation?

S: Yes, that’s a very astute reading of the situation. The spread of the Ghost Dance prophecy, particularly its adoption by different Indigenous groups, can be understood as an attempt to accelerate or hasten a mythic event—like the return of ancestors or the collapse of colonial power—because of the extreme desperation and oppression they were experiencing.

1. Desperation as a Catalyst for Reinterpretation

When Wovoka first delivered the Ghost Dance prophecy, it was a message of hope and peace, rooted in his personal vision. But as the prophecy spread to different tribes, especially the Lakota, it morphed under the pressures of their own experiences. The Lakota were already experiencing extreme violence and displacement from settlers and the U.S. government, so their interpretation of the prophecy became more apocalyptic. They believed that by performing the dance, they could hasten the arrival of the ancestors, the return of the buffalo, and the destruction of white settlers.

Here, we see desperation (and perhaps a growing sense of futility) as a major factor in the reinterpretation of the prophecy. The mythic event—once peaceful—was accelerated and transformed into an apocalyptic, revolutionary act, because the people involved felt that only an extreme, mythic intervention could save them. In a sense, they were trying to bring the mythic world into their human world as quickly as possible, using the ritual to catalyze an urgent, spiritual transformation of reality.

2. The "Acceleration" of Prophecy and the Role of the Desperate Collective

This attempt to "accelerate" the mythic event could be framed as a kind of ritualistic reenactment of prophecy in which the action (the dance itself) became a way to summon or provoke the mythic time. By practicing the dance, the people hoped to draw the cosmic event closer. In some ways, this mirrors how some religious and mystical practices (even in non-Indigenous contexts) emphasize the necessity of human action to bring about divine or cosmic change.

In the case of the Ghost Dance, it’s as if the mythic space of prophecy—the space where ancestors return and settler colonialism ends—was perceived not as a distant, eventual reality but as something to be brought into the present. The urgency of their social context fueled this active participation, trying to collapse the separation between mythic time and human time.

3. Misunderstanding or Misapplication?

We might say that the Ghost Dance prophecy was, in part, misunderstood by later followers (and by outsiders, including the U.S. government) in the sense that they were trying to manifest a grand mythic transformation immediately. Prophecies, in many traditions, are often open to interpretation and adaptation, but in this case, the process of adaptation—triggered by desperation—may have obscured or warped the original intent of the prophecy. What was originally a peaceful, redemptive vision of reconciliation became, under pressure, an apocalyptic struggle for survival.

Interestingly, the real crisis of the prophecy lies in the fact that the colonial powers never acknowledged or engaged with the mythic reality that the prophecy emerged from. Instead, it was viewed as a threat—a spiritual and political movement—rather than a living mythic reality within which the Indigenous peoples were attempting to re-engage and reclaim a lost connection to their ancestors.

4. Prophecy as a Cultural Mode of Survival

So, one way to understand this is that prophecy (and, in particular, the Ghost Dance) became a mode of survival for Indigenous cultures in the face of annihilation. By framing their experience in mythic terms, they were not simply making predictions but seeking to reclaim agency over their own historical moment, within the larger framework of their cultural and spiritual worldview.

Thus, while the desperation to “hasten” the mythic event might have resulted in a misunderstanding of the prophecy’s original message, it was also a natural outcome of a people trying to survive, resist, and re-establish their place in the world. The failure of the prophecy’s more immediate expectations (i.e., the return of ancestors or the collapse of settler society) should be understood not as proof of falsity, but as an indication of how the people were seeking an event of profound spiritual significance in the face of almost total destruction.

Would you like to delve further into how the mythic space of prophecy might function in other historical cases, or continue to explore the implications of this framework with the Ghost Dance?

R: let's try to contrast this with an example of successful prophecy, which may have been misunderstood at the time but came to be true. i'm thinking of Jesus's prophecy in Mark 13:2 (please check the source) about the great buildings being demolished. let's set aside the concept of ontological slippage and look at how Jesus's prophecy seemed to be predicting a future event, but may have just been translating an event in mythic time (something always-never-not happening) into the human world. what's your assessment?

S: Your question is very intriguing, and I think we can indeed approach the prophecy in Mark 13:2 through the lens we’ve been developing, particularly focusing on the tension between mythic time and human time, as well as the possibility that a prophecy can be misunderstood or interpreted as predicting a future event but actually be relating to something that’s part of the cyclical, participatory flow of mythic time.

Context of Mark 13:2

In Mark 13:2, Jesus is speaking about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, saying:

"Do you see all these great buildings? Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
(Mark 13:2, NIV)

This is part of what’s called the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus is warning his disciples about the coming destruction and upheaval. Historically, this prophecy is commonly understood as predicting the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE by the Roman Empire—a real, historical event.

1. Understanding Jesus's Prophecy in Mythic Time

From a mythic perspective, we could argue that Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the Temple is not merely a prediction of a future event but a translation of an event in mythic time (or cyclical time) into the human historical timeline. In many religious traditions, temples, cities, and great buildings are seen not only as physical structures but as metaphysical symbols of cosmic order, divine presence, and the intersection of the human and divine realms. The destruction of such a place in a mythic sense represents a profound, cosmological shift—one that can be interpreted as a kind of “clearing” of the old order to make space for renewal or transformation.

By framing the prophecy this way, we begin to see that the destruction of the Temple is not just a linear historical event but a reflection of something that happens in mythic time: the collapse of the old in order to make way for the new. It could be seen as an ongoing process of transformation in which spiritual and physical realms are intertwined.

2. The Prophecy as a Translation into Human Time

If we take prophecy to be the translation of mythic events into human history, then Jesus’s words about the Temple’s destruction could be seen as an attempt to interpret an event that is both timeless and eternal into terms that could make sense within the historical context of his listeners. The prophecy itself becomes a bridge between the mythic and historical realms, where Jesus is communicating something that always happens within mythic time but is translated into a specific moment in human time (the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple).

What’s important here is that the human world is experiencing a convergence of mythic time and human time, where the symbolic destruction of the Temple mirrors a more profound spiritual event. In this way, the prophecy would have been understood as a reflection of both cosmic and historical events: on the one hand, the physical destruction of a monumental symbol, and on the other hand, the fulfillment of a broader spiritual transformation.

3. The Possible Misunderstanding of the Prophecy

The misunderstanding of this prophecy might lie in the perception of it as something purely future-oriented—i.e., that the event it predicted (the destruction of the Temple) was simply a singular future event. In reality, the prophecy could have been a way of articulating something that is always-already happening in mythic time but is brought into the consciousness of the people through a specific historical manifestation. The destruction of the Temple was a moment in history, but the prophecy might be seen as reflecting a process that happens on a more cyclical, eternal level.

For Jesus’s followers, the Temple’s destruction was undoubtedly a deeply traumatic and disorienting event, and many would have understood the prophecy as a sign of divine wrath or an impending cataclysm. However, from a more mythic or spiritual perspective, the destruction could be seen as an event in an ongoing process of spiritual transformation—one that continually “destroys” the old ways to make way for renewal.

This mirrors other apocalyptic prophecies, in which seemingly catastrophic events (like the fall of great empires or the destruction of sacred places) can be interpreted as part of a larger, cyclical movement of creation and destruction, life and death.

4. Reinterpreting the Prophecy in Light of Success

Unlike the case of the Ghost Dance, where the prophecy’s eventual "failure" led to its repression, the success of Jesus’s prophecy in the case of the Temple’s destruction is more complex. It wasn’t that the prophecy was wrong, but rather that it fulfilled a broader, mythic function. The event Jesus predicted did indeed occur (historically, the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE), but in the context of the Christian faith, it has come to represent the idea of the old covenant being broken, and a new, more universal covenant being established through Christ. In this way, the destruction of the Temple becomes a pivotal moment in the narrative of Christian salvation and redemption.

In this sense, the prophecy about the Temple’s destruction wasn't just about predicting the future, but also about giving meaning to an event within the larger cosmic and mythic narrative—the end of the old and the beginning of the new.

5. Conclusion

To summarize, we could argue that Jesus's prophecy in Mark 13:2—though often viewed as a prediction of the fall of Jerusalem—was actually a moment where a mythic event was translated into human time. Rather than just predicting a future disaster, Jesus might have been articulating a transformation that happens cyclically in mythic time. The prophecy, when considered in this light, was not merely an apocalyptic prediction but an event in the ongoing process of spiritual and cosmic transformation.

The key difference between this and the Ghost Dance prophecy is that the latter was interpreted and reinterpreted through desperation and external pressures, while Jesus’s prophecy in Mark might be better seen as a symbolic translation of a mythic event that was always happening, but came to be framed as a historical moment by his followers.

R: excellent. i also like the interpretation that the very fact of the Temple's existence already prefigured its destruction: when humans begin to build temples, due to the sociocultural incentives and constraints that produce physical containers for the Sacred (something which can and should remain unconfined) they have already set in motion the social and political conditions that will eventually bring the building down. could we consider this a "mythic truth"? if so—in this case, Jesus as the prophet is correctly intuiting the mythic truth of inevitable collapse and translating it into the human world, perceiving that the historical conditions are aligning in the direction of an imminent collapse. how does that sound?

S: That interpretation is very compelling, and I think it aligns well with the framework we’ve been developing, especially when we think about prophecy as a way of articulating mythic truths into human history. Let's break this down a bit further and see how the concept of a "mythic truth" applies in this case:

The Idea of a "Mythic Truth"

A "mythic truth" would be something that exists not merely as a future prediction but as a fundamental, cyclical principle that is always true within mythic time. It’s not a truth that simply emerges when a prophet foresees something, but a truth that is embedded within the structure of the universe, the world, and society itself. In this sense, mythic truths are inherent in the very fabric of existence, awaiting recognition or articulation at specific moments, often through symbolic or prophetic language.

In the case of the Temple's destruction, we could see the very act of constructing a temple—symbolizing human attempts to contain the Sacred, to manifest the divine in material form—as setting in motion the inevitable forces that will eventually dismantle that very attempt. The sociocultural conditions you mentioned, which incentivize and constrain the building of such physical structures, are already an acknowledgment of their eventual decay or destruction. This inevitability is not a pessimistic outlook; rather, it’s a recognition of the cyclical nature of spiritual and material forces.

Jesus as a Prophet Intuiting the Mythic Truth

From this perspective, Jesus’s prophecy about the destruction of the Temple is not simply about foretelling a future event but about correctly intuiting a mythic truth: that the temple, as a material and symbolic container for the Sacred, will inevitably collapse. In a way, this collapse isn’t simply a future catastrophe; it’s a necessary process inherent in the very act of human beings creating sacred spaces.

Jesus, as the prophet, is attuned to this truth and translates it into the human world, perceiving that the historical conditions—the social, political, and spiritual forces at play in Jerusalem at the time—are aligning in a way that will bring about the temple’s destruction. His prophecy could thus be seen as both a statement of inevitability and a call to awareness, encouraging his followers to recognize that their material world, built as it is with the forces of temporal power and worldly ambition, cannot forever contain the Sacred.

A Prophecy of Collapse and Transformation

This interpretation emphasizes the symbolic nature of the prophecy and the cyclical, transformative process that it suggests. The destruction of the Temple is not merely an end—it is a transformation that must occur for something new to arise. In this way, the prophecy is closely tied to the mythic understanding of creation and destruction as interconnected, cyclical events. The collapse of the Temple is the necessary clearing of space for something new to emerge.

In mythic terms, the Temple could be seen as a symbol of any human attempt to establish a stable, unchanging form for something divine or eternal, such as the Sacred. This stability, however, is illusory, and eventually, the human attempt to encase the Sacred in material forms must give way to a deeper, more flexible, and universal understanding of the divine. The Temple's destruction is therefore a release—a return to a more primordial, spiritual state beyond material constraints.

Connecting Prophecy to Mythic Time

In this sense, Jesus’s prophecy functions as a bridge between mythic time (the cyclical, eternal truths) and human time (the temporal, historical events). By recognizing the inevitable collapse of the Temple, Jesus is articulating something that is always happening within the cyclical, mythic flow of time but has come into sharp focus at a particular moment in history.

The prophet’s role here is crucial: the prophet perceives the flow of mythic time, and, through divine insight or spiritual attunement, translates that into human events. The destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, then, becomes a historical manifestation of a larger, cosmic principle: the inevitability of change, decay, and transformation within the realm of the Sacred.

Conclusion: Is This a "Mythic Truth"?

Yes, I would say this can be considered a "mythic truth"—a truth that is inherently part of the structure of existence, one that transcends specific historical moments but can be articulated through those moments. The construction of the Temple is inseparable from its destruction because the very act of building it contains the seeds of its eventual collapse. Jesus, in his prophetic role, is correctly perceiving this cyclical inevitability, articulating it in human terms, and translating it into a warning and a message for his followers.

The prophecy is a reflection of the deep structures of reality—material and spiritual, human and divine—and Jesus’s role as a prophet is to make these structures visible and understandable to his contemporaries, even though their full meaning may not become clear until later in history.

This understanding positions prophecy not just as foretelling but as the unveiling of a deeper, participatory truth that links human time with mythic time.

R: interesting to think of the prophets' role in this light. in the cases of both Wovoka and Jesus, the prophet has to think from within two different dimensions simultaneously: they have to, first, perceive the events of mythic time, which has its own rules of causality; second, relate that understanding of mythic time to the human world, which has a completely different regime of causality; third, find the language to relate those interdimensional events to one another; and fourth, to anticipate their own role in the renewal of the mythic cycle in the human realm, and the human-world consequences of the prophecy's revelation. hell of a job! how would you assess that formulation?

S: I think your formulation captures the complex, multidimensional nature of the prophetic role very well! What you're describing emphasizes the prophet's task as not just a linear foretelling of events but as an intricate mediator between different levels of reality—both mythic and human—while simultaneously negotiating the temporal and spiritual dimensions. Let's break it down:

1. Perceiving the Events of Mythic Time

The prophet’s initial task is to perceive mythic time, the eternal flow of events that transcend linear history. This is the world of symbolic cycles, universal truths, and cosmic patterns that operate outside of human time. Mythic time doesn’t follow the cause-and-effect logic that governs our everyday world; it’s governed by principles of recurrence, transformation, and inevitability. The prophet, in this case, has to be attuned to these deeper, often hidden layers of existence and recognize the eternal rhythms that underlie human life.

The challenge here is immense: it's not just about understanding events that have happened or will happen; it’s about perceiving a reality that exists beyond human perception—a non-linear, symbolic realm where time itself is cyclical, not sequential.

2. Relating the Mythic to the Human

Once the prophet understands the mythic events in their own domain, they must then translate them into the human world. This means translating the timeless and universal into the particular and temporal. The prophet has to navigate the disparity between mythic and human causality—two different "regimes" of causality that often don't align.

Mythic time operates in cycles, where events repeat, transform, and reconfigure over time. Human time, on the other hand, operates linearly, driven by the progress of historical events, political power, and social structures. The prophet needs to bridge these two, finding a way to speak to the human world about truths that might seem abstract or inaccessible in ordinary life.

3. Finding the Language to Relate Them

This is perhaps the trickiest part of the prophetic role. The prophet has to find language—often symbolic or metaphorical—to convey the truth of their mythic perception in a way that resonates with their audience. This is why prophecy is often metaphoric, symbolic, or enigmatic; it is an attempt to translate something from a higher plane into human terms that can be understood, even if those terms can never fully capture the depth of the mythic insight. In the cases of both Wovoka and Jesus, the language they used would have been deeply rooted in their own cultural context—through religious imagery, spiritual symbolism, and metaphors—tailored to the worldview of the people they spoke to.

4. Anticipating the Role in the Renewal of the Mythic Cycle

Finally, the prophet has to anticipate their own role in the renewal of the mythic cycle within the human world. Prophets are often not just predicting events; they are enacting or initiating those events by their very act of prophecy. There’s an inherent performative element in prophecy: by articulating the mythic truth, the prophet may become an agent of transformation or even the catalyst for the shift they predict. Their role in human history becomes intimately tied to the revelation itself. In a sense, the prophecy's fulfillment can only happen through the prophet’s own participation—whether it’s Wovoka’s call for a spiritual renewal of his people or Jesus’s role in the establishment of a new covenant.

A Hell of a Job

Exactly! The prophet, in this view, isn’t simply a passive observer or a mere mouthpiece of divine will. Instead, they are a bridge between dimensions of time, dimensions of causality, and dimensions of language. They’re walking in both worlds—the world of mythic cycles and the world of human history—and their task is to make those worlds speak to each other. It’s a delicate balance: the prophet must both perceive the underlying cosmic truth of what’s happening in mythic time and find a way to translate that into actionable, meaningful words for people living in a temporal, human realm.

The act of prophecy itself becomes a ritual of interdimensional translation—a descent into the timeless, cyclical truths of mythic time, with a return to human history to make those truths known. The prophet’s participation in the process of prophecy then becomes self-fulfilling—the prophecy often couldn’t come true without the prophet’s involvement, either as a messenger or as an active agent of transformation.

[End transmission.]